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They only made money when they sold FF mirrorless against no competition. Even then they didn't gain market share.

So the questions are - will they still make money,, and how far will their market share fall? Sony is a massive company with a lot of money.

That's more than Nikon is worth! For less than what they are dropping into their sensor business, they could buy up all of Nikon.

This is why these companies can crank out cameras and lenses even without much market share. They have the resources and money. Fujifilm has very small market share, and yet they can not only put out a very deep APS-C mirrorless system, but they can also do medium format mirrorless too!

And that's why Panasonic can jump into the FF mirrorless game. They have the money to do so. Market share can be deceiving.

It's not all about market share. And you would be asking, "Is Apple still making any money? T3 - Do the other Sony boardroom members ever wonder where you are?

Or do you type these posts while sitting at the table eating sushi with your fellow members? Do you have all these links you post stored somewhere; or is your entire daily life consumed by this site?

PhotoPhoolish - Ever hear of Google? I think information is power, information is good. I think a lot of people are just misinformed, so I like to do my part.

And I'm a good multi-tasker and a fast typer. Aren't we all here for a bit of entertainment and fun? There is a difference between being informative and defensive.

You seem to play both parts well. And I'm not sure many others outside your Sony fan club would call what you do "fun and entertaining".

I personally get a laugh out of it. Sony Sensors is a different company. Their largest customer is Apple. Their largest ILC customer is Nikon both of whom they greatly want to keep.

Also, Samsung is bigger than Sony, Canon, and Nikon combined. They got out of the ILC business but still sell more "cameras" than those 3 combined.

Sony is in a bad spot. They only way they've made money selling cameras in the past decade was being the sole FF mirrorless manufacturer besides Leica.

But now there are 3 new very strong competitors, two of whom have a decades old history of beating Sony. Now you have done it T3 is going to share a link to Amazon hourly sales updates!!

T3 made some excellent points. So many people are unaware of the differences in size of these 3 companies, even if Sony went through its own crisis in audio and TV business, mostly due to Samsung's raise to greatness.

Since they acquired Minolta's camera business, they made a series of correct decisions and laid out a path to success in digital imaging, what includes photography or commercial application medical, surveillance and automotive.

Sony is a major player, Canon and Nikon must face it. Still, in photography the "full frame" market is only a fragment of the entire "picture".

Once the hype is over, the rhetoric will get old, decisive will be the "feeder" segment, where the majority of customers reside: Too passionate to accept a cell-phone as a camera, and yet not willing to spend untold thousands for a heavy full-frame system.

Full frame system will stay only for the evening, low light situation. Oskar P - You clearly don't understand how Japanese companies are structured.

It's because all of these "companies" are all a part of the Sony conglomerate, or keiretsu. Let me explain it this way.

Every one of Sony's conglomerate companies on that IR Day roster are like players on a sports team.

Each player is his own "separate" person, but each person is there to contribute to the success of the team.

And in this case, it's the Sony team. Therefore, Sony Semiconductor is its own separate "person" or "company", but this "company" is still part of the Sony team.

People in Western countries may not understand this, but that's how Japanese conglomerates, especially the Sony conglomerate, works. T3 shares Amazon links to sales ranks?

He doesn't get that Sony spun off the sensor division back in He just doesn't get that the company operates separately and laws govern how they operate.

Maybe he didn't know that in the US many companies share board members and own each other's stock.

But they are still rivals. And now they are up against two companies that have beatet them soundly over and over. Sony DSLRs are dead.

Sony SLTs are in life support. This is how Japanese conglomerates work. But you seem to ignore they make these profits by selling sensors, not by their own cameras like all other camera companies.

So comparing Sony's overall "profits" to other companies is like taking Canon's printers into account to talk about their camera business.

Shiranai - Ultimately, in the keiretsu structure, it doesn't matter. For example, with Fujifilm, only 5. But since Fujifilm makes so much money elsewhere in their various other companies and divisions, they have the money to invest into the X system and GFX system, in spite of having relatively tiny market share in the camera market.

Haven't you ever wondered how companies like Fujifilm and Panasonic, which have such small market share, can still produce the cameras they do?

It's because they aren't just a "camera company". They, like Sony, are very diversified, and are able to make money in so many other ways and, as such, they have the money to then put it into cameras.

But thanks to the diversified conglomerate structure, they have the cash to do both X system and GFX, and more.

It allows them to have much greater flexibility, and not be so dependent upon big market share or massive sales volumes. They simply didn't have the resources to support these products.

Yeah but still you're talking about how great Sony is doing in their camera department and then throw around numbers that take Sony's whole revenues into account.

But Sony is not only cameras, they basically have their fingers in everything. Size and overall revenue doesn't matter in the camera market.

See Samsung for example. They are even bigger than Sony but they were still not able to make it in the camera market although the put superior products out.

Money means nothing if you don't have a name and reputation. I'm not saying Sony has a bad reputation but I see close resemblance to Samsung.

Sony was lucky so far that they didn't have any competitors yet in their little full frame mirrorless niche. Shiranai - The difference between Samsung and Sony is that Samsung didn't have sales success in the camera market, while Sony does.

Look at Amazon's Best Sellers list for mirrorless screen shot from Oct 9, Additionally, Sony is more tenacious than Samsung.

For example, Sony kept Betamax in production for 40 years after it was introduced, long after it was defeated by VHS:.

They didn't end Betamax recorder production until , and didn't end Betamax tape production until Likewise, they continued similar support for their other formats and products such as MiniDisc and DAT.

Not that US Amazon Best Seller list as any real world reference to how well cameras are actually selling.. I don't see this decline in DSLRs stopping, especially as mirrorless has even more attention:.

You really are too funny T3. The conclusion you came up with from all the links I shared was to cherry pick one aspect of one of the links that fits your agenda, all whilst ignoring everything else.

It's just what one "expert" has "cherry" picked to recommend. Your second link is just a search query, and it too brings up Sony for "camera best seller digital mirrorless":.

Another interesting list from Amazon is their "Most Wished For" list. As Amazon describes the list, "Our products most often added to Wishlists and Registries.

Those amazon wish lists don't say anything really. These are christmas wishlists from a few kids and wannabe influencers Same goes for all other lists on Amazon, that they change like they want.

If they have a lot of camera X in stock they just put that as a best seller. If you wanna look at real world stats, go to flickr camera finder.

If you sort all iPhones out, you'll see Canon ranks No. So please don't tell me Sony has a sales success. Their only success is if you narrow it down to their little mirrorless fullframe niche.

Take one of these two words away and the world looks completely different. Shiranai - Wow, some people are in such denial.

Firstly, Flickr is a very outdated platform. People have been documenting Flickr's decline for a while now. I'm surprised anyone would still cite it as a point of reference!

Secondly, Amazon is a massive sampling pool and a very good indicator of consumer sentiment. Amazon has million Prime members.

If Amazon were a country, it would have a population as large or larger than Japan million. It's very foolish to ignore the data and numbers coming out of Amazon.

Shiranai - As for Sony's sales success, it certainly extends beyond FF. And the fact that it's the third best selling ILC model indicates that FF isn't quite such an insignificant "niche".

Certainly not for Sony, because they are selling a lot of them. Plus, A is selling well, in spite of coming out in !

Let's face it, the only reason some of you don't like the Amazon data is that it shows that Sony is selling well.

How immature is that? I come from an industry that works on data, evidence, references and citations. In my world, you can't just say things without supporting references, data, or citations.

As per these conversations, it's foolish to ignore data that is showing us what is selling well at the world's largest camera store.

Rebels have been a huge success for Canon. And this is certainly reflected in Amazon's sales data, showing the Rebel being 1. That is absolutely true.

We can't just stick our heads in the sand just because we wish the data showed something else! Data points are important.

You reference Amazon one of 's of data points because it supports your agenda. You also cherry pick from your one source to the same end.

You also like to spin what data comes from this one source I for one have never, and I know not one photographer that has.

Today at the time of writing this it has moved up to Nope, not in your little Sony bubble. That is the type of data point you will not share, much like you being incapable of saying a single positive about Canikon.

It's no different from citing market share numbers from Japan. Is the entire million population of Japan photographers? In the top "Digital Cameras" list, you certainly have to consider price point, since there are only so many spots on that list and that list is comprised of all digital cameras, and a lot of those spots are taken up by cheap point-n-shoots.

More expensive cameras generally don't make the list. Given their high prices, they sell at lower volumes. I could not give a damn about how well or not Sony is selling on Amazon or elsewhere..

Thats just you projecting. What certainly does bother me though, is the number of Sony shills and fan boys that are all over Canikon threads like a plague.

I cannot get through a single Canikon thread with the majority of the posts being by people such as yourself.

You must be at over posts that data point.. You don't even shoot full frame. Where do you find the time to post from morning until the middle of the night?

Does your employer know.. But it doesn't mean that the EOS R is "a better camera. And you act as if anything said about "Canikon" is a personal affront to you.

When you use so many cameras, it broadens your perspective. You don't just identify as a "Canikon" guy. And I am an observer of the industry.

Also, I think there are people who just don't like change, and any change to the status quo offends them.

Change happens, and I'm comfortable with it. Some people here apparently can't accept it! I was being sarcastic about the data point that the Eos R is outselling the Sony.

Yet this is the same argument you have been using for at least 6 months, "proving" that Sony makes "better" camera, because they are "outselling" Canikon.

What you also failed to understand from my prior posts is that I do not consider Amazon or sales number hourly from them to reflect whatsoever on which camera is a "better" one than another.

I have no use for a Canon Rebel.. They certainly outsell 5DSR's my current camera of choice. You are the one that is having "difficulty" with this fact.

You mentioned above that: Since your interpretation of data, your sources and your methods are diminished at best. Gentlemen, your talk turned circular and personal.

Maybe a forum would be better, here this is about EOS-R. T3 has his own reality. The topic is always the same. His links copied and pasted I don't take anything personally on line, but certainly find his spin, bias and shill behavior irritating.

Unfortunately the forums are even more volatile. I had once joined a "conversation".. I simply recommended that he rent the camera 1st for a couple days..

There's only one site that posts hourly updates of sales ranking, that has such massive volume and traffic as Amazon, and that's Amazon.

Yes, this is the same Amazon that had a huge part in driving so many brick-and-mortar camera stores out of business.

And Amazon keeps growing and growing. You may not like what the Amazon camera sales rankings are showing, but they are what they are.

They certainly represent a significant sampling pool of consumer sentiment. It's a very valuable look into what's selling well and what's not selling well, almost in real time.

Just think of all those camera store owners who also dismissed Amazon camera sales. Mail order camera stores have been around forever, and they haven't put us out of business, so why should Amazon?

Oh yeah Flickr is so outdated only thousands use it per day. Can't believe how much text you already wasted to defend your Sony with your Amazon christmas wishlists from 10year olds.

Until then have fun pleasuring yourself over statistics from last years little fullframe mirrorless niche market as long as they last: So this seems to be a VERY mediocre camera Yet I am sure Canon will dominate the market wit such cameras.

I cannot understand HOW they are doing this, but that's happening again and again Canon will do just that, but not with this first gen.

And, while people here are busy with 4K and DR, well There is also a funny, second thing: This concerns solely the camera body - the lenses are awesome.

Because Canon and Nikon has been in the market for so long, people own a lot of their glasses. Problem is - they were unable to convince me that I will see something completely different when using one of their cameras.

And, I did not. I already have, and use, cameras and lenses from 3 brands Cameras and lenses of today are so good If you shoot Canon for decades you should have already develop muscle memory on how to operate the camera with your eyes closed.

Many pro photographers can easily adjust setting, shortcut, modes without looking away from OVF. When you switch, you have to relearn everything. I switched from Canon to Fuji 3 years ago after shooting only Canon since and it was already huge struggling for me to adjust.

I feel the same here. I have used 4 brands and have found Canon a safe bet. In the end IQ of these brands is enough and is not really the deciding factor anymore.

A camera that fits specific purpose or shooting style is more important. I am mostly using my Fuji T1 right now due to its size advantage but I find xtrans too much of a hassle.

I never sold my Canon lenses. When I picked up the R I felt right at home. I guess I am not alone in that situation.

Afterwards I can still buy one or two native lenses where it makes most sense. Picking up a Z or A7 would be much more expensive for me and the R is good enough for me.

Max specs is just not the best choice for me. IQ is very very close to d that I have tried once. R is not going to be a let down in IQ for the price.

I think the success of Canon and Nikon heavily relies on their reputation. They earned it in decates and every new contender is fighting agains gigantic brand names.

One or five bad cameras from Canon will not harm damage in a significant way. I'm involfed in this whole GAS site system for 10 years now and I have to admit that those technical spec crunching is only done by a fairly small group of gearheads.

Mirrorless just arived in a mature state in the last years. If you want reliable AF you have to spend big money. But starters want a cheap body with some good cheap glass.

Which system offers this without major flaws? I gave my wife as a gift a 77D with just 3 lenses: I've been following dpreview and its forums since it helped me get my 30D, with which I've been very happy, as well as my 70D.

This review is just confused and not very helpful: But instead of falling myself into the pattern I'd like to offer a possible, simple solution: For a landscape and architecture shooter with 6 EF and EF-S lenses like myself, it sounds like a nice camera, an interesting alternative to a 6DII at least.

It might not be a good fit for other segments, but that would make the other reviews a lot easier: On the other hand, dude shows up in a bath robe at 5 am, Canon reps should be allowed to shoot on sight, and not with a camera.

There were many remarks in the video that are impossible to understand if you are not deeply involved and know about all the other cameras, their reviews etc.

I wonder who the intended audience is? It sounded to me like the audience is the dpreview office itself. Also it got completely lost not only who this review is for, but also who the camera is for?

OK, it doesn't have every feature as good as the competition has it. But every feature is look at individually.

What about the whole package? Do I need all those features? Would a still photographer settle for resolution capped at the p of a typical display? Canon's in-lens IS only two-axis.

One Canon camcorder offers this. The R is like an upgraded 6D II that scratches the mirrorless itch at the same time without leaving your existing Canon gear behind.

That is the main target group. Canon probably has a series of new bodies planned, so you can add IBIS, intervallometer etc.

I expect Nikon to come out with eye AF and a richer palette of AF options, some of which were not carried over from the D, 2 cards, fully articulated monitor etc.

We are dealing with the sales dpt. If you are confused about the video this camera is not for you, because you will never get to use the features on it.

At least we know they weren't influenced by a nice trip to Hawaii kindly paid by Canon. Maybe the bills were paid by Nikon?

LOL though, sony cameras can sell themselves alone, their spec sheet says a lot for less.. But it is nice to get some honest reviews right?

Wait until a separate review comes out, and maybe then make the decision. Really hammering home the negatives and underplaying the positives.

Chris was the worse offender of that. Personally I would ignore the review and wait for some serious ones.

Also wait for the first firmware update. Stu 5, I can see your point of view, but I don't know if there are many positives to this camera apart from the vast ecosystem.

And there are lots of negatives, you must agree. As a long time Canon user, I'm feeling shafted. It's just downright mean.

Chris and I have previously had Canon stop talking to us for years after a negative review. If they do it again, unfortunately that's the price of our integrity.

And the audience appreciates it. You cop flak, but it's why DPR stands out and remains on my favourite bar. I think most people, like me, are increasingly shying away from many so called reviews.

And it's the right thing to do. Reviewers are in the end just people also. Different people have different needs in their camera gear. I am quite certain upon the release of their "pro" body..

It was underwhelming when announced and even more so after watching this and other reviews. The Nikon Z's look much better in every way, but both still fall short of the a9, a73 and a7r3.

Some truth to what you are saying, but there are millions of EF lens owners who will make a purchasing decision with that in mind.

As one of those people, it might 'force' you to accept it as 'good enough' and for a lot of people it probably is , just not as good as the competition.

Not totally convinced about Fuji crop sensors compared to FF]. EF lenses work as well as native glass on the latest Sony's with the MC Expecting people to adopt a new mount while the competition wipes the floor with their tepid offerings is not a sound business model.

This is the biggest swing and miss we've seen from a major camera company in quite some time. Amazon rankings are not a great source of info, but the R is lagging way behind everything from Sony, the Z's and lots more.

Canon's adherence to a philosophy built on the dominance of cheap plastic DSLR's is clearly going to cause problems as buyers continue to move to mirrorless.

They don't have tech that's even close to class leaders and they lead with a slow, poor performing camera out of the gate.

Relying on sensors that are a couple generations behind Sony isn't doing them any favors either. Half of my Canon lens collection is not fully operational using a Sony and I tried 5 adapters in the meantime.

I used the R with most of those lenses and they work like a charm. There is really no competition here, the R performs much better with Canon EF lenses at least.

I cannot comment on third party lenses, though. I do not care for them. The M is small and cheap. Adding the R or Z or A7 is like adding a Porsche to your bicycle.

You really have to search very hard to find this an issue. Just keep your M with 1 or 2 small and cheap lenses when you do add a small car investment into full frame.

Compared to other full frame specs in the market like Sony and Nikon with the eventual entry of Panasonic, this camera is really a tech weakling considering its price tag and a new mount.

Canon would have a hard time cracking the mirrorless market by enticing its current dslr owners to switch, much less from pros to their mirrorless sytem unless they lower down the price.

Canon 6DII were bashed for its weak specs but it still became one of their best sellers. Can the same gimmick work in the mirrorless market this time around?

I'm a pro using 5Div's and I'm ordering one of these. And smaller, and lighter weight. With a whole new generation of sharper lenses on the way.

Why is it so hard to believe anyone would buy one? There is no gimmick in the great quality of Canon produced photos for sure but it could be better when you can capture a moment in all its fidelity both light and shadows.

And that's the price it's been sitting at ever since: Camera companies don't knock hundreds of dollars off the price of new products that are selling well.

The point is that Canon can only get away with what we let them get away with. So it's quite possible that we will see a huge price drop with the EOS R soon.

No one is forgetting anything. Before Canon and Nikon released information on what they were doing in full frame mirrorless, during the "teasers", their announcements and currently Sony is the far better choice and does no wrong.

Yes we get it, thanks for reminding all of us not to forget 10's of times daily, every day. You act as if every comment is made directly to you, personally.

Stop taking things so personally. The 6D II found its sweet price spot like all other cameras did. The R will sell for less after some time.

The time of competition just started. And it will be great for us customers. The overwhelming number of posts having the same message This behavior is much the same with Nikons most recent Z mount.

I have my preferences for certain brands over others, but can find both positives and negatives in all.

I certainly don't think you are addressing me personally, unless you are actually writing " cbphoto". Give it a rest. The video was so bad, I kept checking YouTube quality sittings to ensure its p..

There was the brief shot from the GH5 near the end of the video I think it's when Jordan was back in Calgary - the image on-screen suddenly looked noticeably sharper.

I didn't think I would notice it until it popped on screen. I do not have any information if other AF systems are that good in this special case and that is a problem of current reviews: It's all about sports, fast tracking but no scientifically evaluated AF hit rates for selected use cases e.

I am missing too comparisons between 4k material of similar setups but different cameras before and after e. Great video review; it really shows where the camera excels and where it falls short.

The saddest comment for me was at the end; the company that changed video forever with the 5D has now "fallen behind on video".

I wonder how many of those lackluster launches they can have before market share starts eroding. I shot Canon for over 20 years and changed to Nikon about 4 years ago for the D - nothing I have seen since makes me regret the switch which was both expensive and painful ergonomics , but I am really glad I did.

A good idea on paper that may never deliver on its promise. Good catch on the Eye-Control. I used to have EOS-3 and tried to to use it, to no avail.

It as very unreliable, especially for photographer with glasses. The case with the touch-bar is typical for Canon's attempts to introduce something completely new.

Some of these ideas hit the dust bin for a reason which I cannot follow. Use the mid-sensor to focus on closest object, press shutter.

Focus on the furthest object, press, compose image and press the 3rd time. The camera would calculate proper aperture and focus to the correct distance between these both closest and furthest objects.

Perfect for architecture and any other situation with a group of objects at a different distance.

But then I have to remind myself that the Elan IIe only had three widely spaced focus points! The reality is that it was inconsistent from one person to the next.

Some people found it reliable, while other people found it very unreliable, which is probably why Canon stopped using it altogether. And I suspect the Mf bar will also go that route.

I am sure I still have someplace in a dusty binder with magazine pages: If memory serves, eye control was too slow for the demands of the professional sports shooter.

Eye control so far back was almost like a science fiction, probably inspired by these eye controlled weapon systems integrated in helmets for pilots.

A big gun pointing instantly where the pilot was looking at could make the difference between live and death. So Canon wanted photographers to have the same functionality.

Les also recall that the IS was introduced by Canon, and Nikon needed years, years to finally come out with the VR remake of it.

Manual focus point selection of any form is generally too slow for sports shooting, whether you're talking about using a joystick, or Canon's Quick Control Dial, or ECF.

It certainly was faster than using the QCD, where you had to toggle through all focus points before getting to your desired focus point.

There was just too much variability in performance and user experience. I was one of those folks for whom eye control did not work at all and I also have glasses and heavy astigmatism - I think the highly variable level of satisfaction killed the feature eventually.

When I moved to the 1V was I simply delighted to not have to worry about it. Even the leap to the EOS lens mount proved to be a brilliant change.

This camera is going to be a test of Canon's market dominance. It offers almost no reason for anyone to switch from another brand, so the entire market for it is current Canon users.

Just to maintain market share, Canon needs to sell twice as many of these as Nikon does of both Z models. The new Canon R forum gives a clue.

It is moving at a snail's pace, compared to the new Nikon Z forum. Interesting, but I think Canon has already decided that the market is not going to recover.

They clearly have no faith in the market that they themselves created, at least not enough to put any serious cash in it and hire some people that can bring them back into competition with just about everybody else.

They seem to be going through the motion of gold-plating turds and doing what they know how to do best, lenses and ergonomics but as far as real tech I put them second to last, slightly above pentax no offense to pentax.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are positioning themselves to phase out of the consumer imaging sector. The EOS R may be unimpressive but if all it has to offer is the "old" sensor from the 5D4 for much less money, maybe that was the idea.

That was most likely the purpose. I don't know what the purpose was, nobody knows, including Canon. Call me old school but the point of releasing new camera, no a whole new SYSTEM, is to sell and sell a lot, right away, not at some point in the future when a much better camera may come out, which in the case of Canon, it never does.

As a Canon user I'm a little bit disappointed by the R and I cancelled my preorder. This won't be my first mirrorless. If Canon can deliver a high end model in the next months than it's maybe ok, if not I'm considering to start my first FF mirrorless system with Nikon because the Z7 has exactly the features I'd like to have better sensor and IBIS.

Honestly I also prefer the more compact native Z lenses. At the moment the Nikon Z-System looks more interesting for my purposes coverages, travel, landscape, events, weddings.

The new Canon R lenses look great, sure, but they are also big and heavy and I don't think that I really need a maximum aperture of 1. I think I will give the new Nikon system a try first for leisure photography and maybe it's time to change the ship concerning the future.

The Z feels a lot like a Sony A7 in hand but with some Nikon style. To me the Canon grip is much better to handle even larger lenses.

If you start from scratch all those systems are nice but for different reasons and purposes. The Canon 35mm 1. The is bigger compared to the Nikon but it has the more usable reach as well.

Both are stabilized anyhow. Canon will provide a higher resolution version in for sure which will be more aligned with the prices of the Z7 or A7rIII.

There is not a lot to win on performance and portability compared to a DSLR. To me it is AF field coverage and silent shooting. For stills the D is still the best camera at this time and I am happy with that for now.

I'm waiting to see what develops with the Z6 for some video in the smaller, lighter package. It will lack the resolution for sure. But honestly MP is already enough for my needs.

But then when launching a new system the other features should be also better like the sensor or IBIS. I'm also Canon user here. I still use 5D III and it's getting aged.

I also use GH5 for wedding video and love it. So, there are lots of options out there. TORN The Z feels nothing like the Sony A7, the Z fits in your hand, the A7 is held by your fingertips, with 2 fingers below the camera I have held both within minutes of each other, It will be interesting to feel the difference between the Z and the Canon.

I had all three at the same time. For me the Z and A7 iii had a grip that was too slim to provide me a full grip which let to my knuckles hitting the lenses.

Maybe the Sony was the worst in this respect. Not so with the other two which is very uncomfortable for me with the thicker lenses and with my pinky not finding a save rest.

Sure, grip and usage of a camera vary from person to person. To me the Canon has a significantly better grip compared to the other two and to be clear the only grip that really works for me on any current full frame mirrorless.

From the specs and features I like the Z a bit more, but that is not helping if I cannot hold the camera comfortably for a longer period of time.

Maybe just wait until early and see if the next camera is what you are looking for. However, I have the feeling that it will be rather a high resolution model and not the sports camera to replace the 5D.

Except for the A9 mirrorless is still a compromise for action. Maybe Canon needs more time to figure that out. Then Sony is the best alternative.

Nikon has 3 native lenses, Sony 10 times more and they have better cameras too. So all camera reviews on now will be video? I prefer to read my news not watch someone tell it to me!

I used to feel that way but unfortunately written reviews are becoming more and more about numbers and technical attributes, and less and less about handling and experience.

That's where those two guys elevate the game over anybody else. I find it far more informative to see and hear people's impressions and assessments, combined with examples.

For example, someone can write that a camera's autofocus is indecisive, but it's actually nice to see an example of it happening.

I vote for video. I want to see those palm trees swaying. Of course there could be video of guys throwing fish at Pike's Market but it wouldn't be the same.

Canon dont want to wake up year after year. The most advanced and "and good looking", canon camera in segment is still 5d4. And you can work with it.

We really need you. We need that canon, who produced the best sensors in the past decade. We need that canon who doing FF cameras before 6 years when Nikon could.

I dont want change system, i used to it. But soon I will be forced. Because it is necessary to evaluate the reasonableness of investments.

And I have very few excuses for you. The 6D II is used by many people. They might have missed that it is not suited to their needs.

But now they can upgrade to an R or to a 5D or to a higher class Canon mirrorless early next year. In use the R feels pretty nice, well above the 6D II.

You should try it some day. You might be right with the rush, though. Hope that Canon realizes the firmware update promises they made. If Canon would be Fuji all people would praise a half baked release and myriads of fixes and improvements afterwards.

I have to admit I have a strong respect for Chris - despite being taken to Hawai and hosted there by Canon, he managed to keep a constructive, unbiased attitude.

Unfortunately it more or less proves my points I have posted recently here:. Chris is also rising eye brows over the old sensor behind the competition, laggy and unresponsive touch pad and the trouchscreen, sometimes unreliable and not quite impressive AF performance and other AF abilities and hey, suprisingly for some we even have an SD card failure: All in all, certainly not a bad camera, solid construction and real innovations but indeed seems to be rather a beta product on 6D level at the moment and needs to be taken as such IMHO.

But I think any demanding photographer will skip this release. However, it is rumored that Canon is releasing a Pro mirorrless R soon - that's where things may really get interesting.

Of course, these guys are the best. Chris, and don't forget Jordan, are Canadian, they are able to make Canon swallow the 'suck pill' while enjoying the free trip to Hawaii and being thankful to Canon for that.

I'm sure Chris is as honest as the day is long and the review of this camera was certainly not favorable. But assuming DPR did not pay for this outing, the proper thing to do would be to decline free trips since it's inappropriate to for someone who writes reviews with purchase links, no less to accept gratuities from the supplier.

I think that is implicit in any professional relationship. DPR will do the honest unbiased review and Canon will pay for the trip and accept the outcome.

I think this format is quite new for Canon, they had to watch a few notable competitors do it a few times and they could not be the only one not doing it for a major release like this.

I am not sure they like it The other strategy is to fly over a bunch of "brand ambassadors" to simply shill about the camera. Unfortunately the specifications remained.

Even Rebels have fully articulated screens with the best-in-class dual pixel AF which has no blooming problem which you cannot find in any of the rivals.

I know Canon haters quite well now, thanks to DPR comment sections. If I didn't know better, you sound like you are fighting to keep your jobs.

Photomedium, tell me what I said was wrong. If you focus on only negatives, then you will be hater all your life. I never talk based on graphs, test charts or paid reviews.

Canon cameras are not this bad. They have never been. They are behind here and there but also better in many other things. Just focusing on negative sides is not right.

Informative and enjoyable review. The impression from the review was that it wasn't too inspiring: Just put the cam on Automaticmode and never use the menu, it works out of the box.

Check page of the manual. That's where you'll find the program settings. You can never have too many settings!

Second thing I don't get is this exaggerated complaining about the one card slot. Something that wasn't merely mentioned in the EOS 6D2 or Sony A review, but now we look at the same semi-pro camera emphasis on: If you're a pro, you still got options.

There's cheap standalone backup drives. You take 2 SD cards with you, shoot for half an hour, switch the cards and put one in the backup drive.

Yep it is more cumbersome than having 2 card slots, but still its an option to think about if you really need that kind of safety net.

The question about dual card slots has been asked and answered numerous times now. It's now expected at this price point. Doesn't work for video though, but for images it's a good alternative if you carry your phone with you all the time.

Most people do I reckon. But the best way would be dual slots of course. One bonus with the phone solution is that if your camera gets lost for whatever reason, you would still have your backups.

So where is the dualpixel AF standard to be found in the competition? Or the good ergonomics standard that does not make your fingers hurt? Or the great viewfinder standard?

The big misunderstanding is the target group for this camera. It is not for spec sheet enthusiasts or professional but for Canon photographers using a 6D or wanting to upgrade to full frame on that level and seeing value in the Canon DSLR experience and ergonomics but in a mirrorless body.

The R is a great upgrade on the 6D for a fair price. It will not sway spec sheet affinicados, pros or video enthusiasts and that is perfectly fine.

Maybe it is time for those people to just return to their home forum and take great stabilized 4K videos of their bbq all day long.

I can well imagine some of them using this combo until the pro body arrives early So, that covers DPAF which isn't necessarily superior, just different and the evf.

As for ergonomics, I like the Sony ergonomics, personally, and never find my fingers pinched. Although, I do acknowledge that people with quite rotund fingers may find the distance between the grip and the lens inadequate, even a deal breaker - much like some people may find the location of the AF ON button to be a deal breaker on the R, or the lack of multiple dials, or the lack of a joystick, etc.

Nikon at least went with an XQD slot. I think that sounds reasonable. And I would like to add: Put a tough tablet in a watertight plastic case and log the photos into a save environment.

A spike on the camera power might kill both cards - never possible with a wireless backup. Michael B 66 - You guys are forgetting that running the wireless option on these cameras is a battery hog.

And the battery life is already not great on these cameras. Also, I've never heard of a "spike on the camera power". It's just not possible unless you had the camera plugged into a wall outlet.

Here's how power spikes or power surges happen:. So unless you have your camera plugged into an electrical outlet, you'll never encounter a power spike or power surge in your camera.

The reality is that the simplest, most sure-fire and more reliable way to have redundant backup while shooting is to simply have dual card slots.

I don't know why you guys are so against that. My GOD you take this Canon release personal. What are you shooting with anyway?

It's just a fact that dual card slots are more convenient, more practical, and more energy-efficient than the wireless backup you are proposing.

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